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Todayâs reading time is 5 minutes. - Miko Santos (20 December 2025)
đď¸Today, weâve got the inside scoop on:
Golden Globes Podcast Nominees Reveal What Download Numbers Never Will
Video Podcasts Surge 54% as Platforms Battle for Creator Dominance
YouTube Podcast Ads Convert 25% Worse Than Audio Despite Industryâs Video-First Rush
Podcast Insight: YouTube Isn't Just Beating Netflix. It's Becoming the Default Screen.
PodBusiness : YouTube Podcast Ads Underperform Audio-Only By 25% Even As Industry Doubles Down on Video
Job Board : ARN - The Christian Oâconnell Breakfast Show â Audio Producer
EDISON RESEARCH
Golden Globes Podcast Nominees Reveal What Download Numbers Never Will
Podwires Rundown : Podcasting just got its Hollywood moment. But hereâs the thing: the real story isnât the red carpet. Itâs whatâs hiding in the demographic data.
The Golden Globes announced their first-ever podcast category for 2026, nominating six titles: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, Call Her Daddy, Good Hang with Amy Poehler, The Mel Robbins Podcast, Smartless, and Up First from NPR. Edison Researchâs Podcast Metrics data reveals something advertisers should be paying very close attention toâthese shows donât just have big audiences. They have specific audiences. Up First ranks 23rd overall for weekly reach. But itâs 7th for Latino business owners and 7th for all business owners earning more than $150,000 per year. Thatâs not a coincidence. Thatâs a media buy.
Summary: Edison Research published demographic insights on the six podcasts nominated for the inaugural Golden Globe Best Podcast category, using data from their Edison Podcast Metrics platform. The analysis, covering Q4 2024 through Q3 2025, highlights how each nominee overperforms with specific audience segmentsâinformation that transforms how advertisers should evaluate podcast inventory beyond raw reach numbers.
The Key Points:
2026 marks the first year podcasts have been included in the Golden Globe Awards, a legitimizing milestone for the medium
Up First from NPR ranks 23rd overall but jumps to 7th among Latino business owners and high-income business owners ($150K+)
Good Hang and The Mel Robbins Podcast have âexploded in popularityâ over the past year, with recent quarters outperforming their rolling annual averages
Edison Podcast Metricsâ âNotable Demographic Storiesâ feature surfaces where shows overperform against specific audience segments
Each nominated show has a distinct demographic signature, providing advertisers granular targeting opportunities beyond total downloads
Why It Matters
Download numbers lie. Or rather, they tell an incomplete story. A show ranked 23rd overall might be your single best buy if your target audience is high-income business owners. The Golden Globes nomination list reads like a popularity contest, but Edisonâs demographic breakdowns reveal these shows are actually precision instruments for reaching specific audiences. For podcast advertisers still buying on CPMs alone, this is your wake-up call. For creators, itâs proof that building a loyal niche audience can be more valuable than chasing scale.
The Big Picture
For podcasters: Stop obsessing over total downloads. Your showâs demographic overperformance is what makes you valuable to advertisers. If youâre not commissioning listener research or participating in measurement panels, youâre leaving money on the table. Know your audience better than your buyers do.
For producers: The Golden Globes inclusion signals that podcast production quality and storytelling are being recognized at the highest levels of entertainment. But the Edison data suggests the real competitive advantage isnât just making good contentâitâs understanding who your content resonates with most. Build that into your pitch decks.
For the industry: This is validation that podcasting has arrived as a mainstream entertainment category. But the smarter read is whatâs underneath: we now have the measurement infrastructure to prove that podcast audiences arenât just largeâtheyâre targetable. Thatâs what unlocks premium ad dollars and shifts the buying conversation from âhow many downloadsâ to âwhich audiences can you deliver.â
Let that sink in. The Golden Globes just gave podcasting its prestige moment. Edison just showed why the business model works.
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DIGIDAY
YouTube Isn't Just Beating Netflix. It's Becoming the Default Screen.
Podwires Rundown : And podcasters need to pay attention to what that actually means.
Netflix just admitted something remarkable. While pitching its proposed acquisition of Warner Bros Discoveryâs streaming assets, Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters pointed to YouTubeânot Disney+, not Max, not Paramount+âas the competitor theyâd still trail even after the deal. Let that sink in. Netflix, the company that fundamentally changed how we watch television, is now positioning itself as the underdog against a platform most people still think of as âwhere you watch cat videos.â YouTube commands 12.9% of total TV watch time versus Netflixâs 8%. It has 249.9 million users to Netflixâs 202.5 million. And hereâs the uncomfortable part: 835 billion viewing hours in the first half of 2025 compared to Netflixâs 95 billion. Thatâs not competition. Thatâs domination.
Summary: Digidayâs Krystal Scanlon published a data-rich analysis of YouTubeâs competitive position against Netflix, drawing on Nielsenâs October gauge data, eMarketer forecasts, Owl & Co revenue figures, Enders Analysis viewing trends, and HUB Entertainment Research consumer behavior studies. The piece highlights a quote from Canvas Worldwideâs Hermelinda Fernandez that should stop every podcaster in their tracks: âPodcasts are huge and all the really big podcasts are on YouTube, and people are watching it like a primetime show on their CTV in their living room.â
The Key Points
YouTube captured 12.9% of total TV watch time in October 2025, up 4% month-over-month; Netflix sat at 8%âin sixth place among streamers
Even with HBO and Max acquisition, Netflix would reach only 9% of viewed hoursâstill trailing YouTubeâs 13%, per Netflixâs own CEO
80% of consumers turn to YouTube when they canât find anything else to watch, rising to 90% among 16-34 year olds
YouTube generated $28.1 billion in H1 2025 revenue (up 17% YoY) versus Netflixâs $21.6 billion (up 14% YoY)
YouTube now âowns the vodcast spaceâ with podcasts being watched âlike primetime showsâ on connected TVs
Why It Matters:
YouTube has stopped being the place you go instead of television. Itâs become the place you go first. The platform captures moments of boredom and indecision that no other streaming service can. For podcasters still debating whether video is worth the investment, the math just changed. YouTube isnât a distribution channel. Itâs the distribution channel. When 80% of viewers default to YouTube when theyâre undecidedâand when industry executives explicitly call out podcasts as driving that dominanceâthe question isnât whether to be on YouTube. Itâs whether you can afford not to be.
The Big Picture
For podcasters: YouTube isnât competing with Spotify or Apple Podcasts for your audience. Itâs competing with Netflix. And winning. If your show isnât optimized for YouTube discoveryâthumbnails, titles, chapters, Shortsâyouâre invisible to the largest viewing platform on earth. The CTV living room is now podcast territory. Act accordingly.
For producers: Canvas Worldwideâs SVP just called it: podcasts are being consumed âlike primetime showsâ on connected TVs. That changes everything about production value expectations, visual storytelling, and episode pacing. Audio-first production with a camera bolted on wonât cut it anymore. Youâre competing for the same eyeballs as prestige TV.
For the industry: YouTube generated nearly 9x Netflixâs viewing hours in the first half of 2025. The advertising implications are staggering. Podcast ad buyers accustomed to audio CPMs need to start thinking about YouTubeâs CTV inventoryâand the premium rates that come with living room attention. The platform that âowns the vodcast spaceâ is also the platform capturing the largest share of television.
REALLY? Yes. Really.
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RADIOCENTRE
Video Podcasts Surge 54% as Platforms Battle for Creator Dominance
Podwires Rundown : Spotifyâs video podcast consumption jumped 54% year-over-year, with video viewers consuming 1.5 times more content than audio-only listeners, according to Josh Patridge, Spotifyâs head of EMEA sales.
The shift has triggered a wave of strategic moves across the industry, including Spotifyâs partnership with Netflix to feature top video podcasts on the streaming giantâs platform starting in 2026, Globalâs launch of video-first production studio Global Studios, and Acastâs partnership with Little Dot Studios to enable premium dynamic video ads on YouTube.
The Media Leader reports UK podcast ad spend reached ÂŁ90 million in 2025 (+8% YoY), with global forecasts projecting $3 billion as video transforms podcasts into âshowsâ with deeper audience engagement and expanded monetization opportunities.
The Key Points:
Spotifyâs video podcast viewers consume 1.5x more content than audio-only listeners, demonstrating that video doesnât just add a viewing optionâit fundamentally changes consumption behavior and creates stickier audiences that platforms desperately want to own.
The Spotify-Netflix partnership launching in early 2026 will pull full video podcast episodes off YouTube (except clips on individual show channels), representing Spotifyâs most aggressive move yet to challenge YouTubeâs dominance with younger podcast audiences whoâve made the Google-owned platform their default podcast destination.
Industry leaders are abandoning âvideo as nice-to-haveâ positioning, with Globalâs commercial podcast director Sarah Ray calling the companyâs Global Studios launch and Fellas Studios acquisition a âhuge statement of intentâ that signals video-first isnât optional anymoreâitâs survival strategy for major podcast networks.
Acast became the first UK podcast monetization company to enable premium, dynamic, targeted video ads on YouTube, creating a new revenue stream that acknowledges the reality that YouTube has become a podcast platform whether the traditional podcast industry likes it or not.
The shift from podcasts to âshowsâ creates communities around content that attract brand partnerships beyond traditional audio advertising, exemplified by the Bundesliga giving live match rights to content creator podcasts on YouTubeâa move unthinkable in the audio-only era.
Why It Matters
The video podcast boom represents the most significant format shift in podcasting since the mediumâs inception, forcing creators and networks to choose between competing platform strategies while fundamentally changing production economics. For podcast producers, this means potentially doubling production costs to create video-quality content while navigating exclusive platform deals that could fragment their audiences. The 1.5x consumption increase matters because it suggests video doesnât cannibalize audio listeningâit creates super-consumers who drive higher engagement metrics that translate to better monetization, but only if creators can afford the production leap and pick the right platform partners.
The Big Picture
Hereâs the uncomfortable part: the video podcast revolution is accelerating platform consolidation at precisely the moment independent creators thought theyâd escaped the walled gardens. Spotifyâs Netflix partnership isnât about giving creators more distributionâitâs about locking premium content into Spotifyâs ecosystem by offering Netflixâs massive reach as the carrot. Let that sink in. When full episodes leave YouTube, creators lose direct audience relationships and algorithmic discovery on the worldâs second-largest search engine.
For podcast producers, the strategic question isnât whether to add videoâthat debate ended when consumption jumped 54%. The question is how to produce video content without becoming dependent on platforms that will inevitably prioritize their own interests over creator economics. The Acast-Little Dot partnership offers a glimpse at the alternative: enable monetization across platforms rather than betting everything on exclusive deals.
Independent creators face brutal math. Video production costs 2-3x more than audio, requiring lighting, cameras, editing expertise, and studio space that audio-only productions avoided. Meanwhile, the platforms driving video consumption take the same revenue cuts (or higher) despite creators absorbing all the additional costs. Fair play to Global and major networks that can afford dedicated video studios, but most podcast producers donât have that luxury.
The Bundesliga example reveals where this is heading: podcasts becoming âshowsâ that attract partnership opportunities beyond traditional advertising. But those opportunities flow to creators who can afford professional video production and have audiences large enough to interest major brands. The middle tier of podcastersâsuccessful enough to quit their day jobs but not big enough for Netflix dealsârisk getting squeezed between expensive video expectations and stagnant CPMs.
For podcast producers: Start treating video as a separate content strategy, not just âturning on the cameraâ during audio recording. Test vertical video clips optimally formatted for different platforms before committing to full-length video episodes. Consider the 1.5x consumption multiplier when calculating ROI on video production costsâif your audio show generates $50k annually, can video increase that to $75k while costing less than $25k to produce? If not, youâre subsidizing platform growth with your money.
For podcast networks: The Global Studios and Fellas acquisition strategy makes sense if youâre fighting for premium creator talent. But donât force every show into video if the format doesnât serve the content. Audio-only still represents the majority of podcast consumption, and plenty of categories (true crime, news, educational content) donât benefit from talking-head video.
The industry proclaimed âvideo is no longer a nice-to-have,â but thatâs marketing speak from platforms with billions in venture funding. For most creators, video remains exactly what itâs always been: a calculated bet that requires honest assessment of whether the format serves your specific audience and whether the economics actually work. The platforms pushing hardest for video podcasts arenât the ones paying production costs.
OXFORD | PODCRIBE
YouTube Podcast Ads Convert 25% Worse Than Audio Despite Industry's Video-First Rush
Podwires Rundown: YouTube podcast ads are 18-25% less effective at driving purchases than audio-only podcast ads, according to research analyzing over 1,000 campaigns across 100+ brands conducted by Oxford Road and Podscribe.
The finding exposes a dangerous disconnect: while the industry races toward video-first strategies based on engagement metricsâSpotify reports video podcast consumption up 54% year-over-year with viewers consuming 1.5x more contentâthe actual advertising performance data reveals YouTubeâs fundamental architecture undermines the intimate, intentional listening experience that made podcast advertising valuable.
In the promo code dataset, 78% of brands (18 of 23) showed declining conversion rates as YouTubeâs share of impressions increased, with regression analysis estimating YouTube views deliver 25% worse response rates than RSS downloads. A separate post-purchase survey dataset of 22 advertisers found 6 of 7 brands with complete data showed performance declines, estimating an 18% effectiveness gap. This matters because advertisers are pricing and planning YouTube and audio podcast impressions as fungibleâtreating a YouTube view the same as an RSS downloadâwhile unknowingly accepting significantly worse performance.
The Key Points:
Oxford Road and Podscribe analyzed two independent datasets measuring different outcomes (promo code redemptions and post-purchase survey responses), with both datasets converging on the same conclusion that YouTube impressions underperform audio downloads by 18-25% at driving purchases, providing cross-validation that this isnât a measurement artifact.
The research methodology divided each advertiserâs campaigns into deciles based on YouTubeâs share of total impressions, revealing that for 78% of brands, response rates consistently declined as YouTubeâs percentage increasedâa pattern too consistent across diverse advertisers to attribute to coincidence or creative quality.
The performance gap stems from fundamental consumption differences: audio-only listeners deliberately select shows and engage during activities with high switching costs (commuting, exercising), while YouTube viewers often arrive via algorithmic suggestions in an environment where âthumbnails and other options compete for attention, encouraging clicking away within 30 seconds,â according to Oxford Roadâs Giles Martin.
YouTubeâs view counting methodology allows multiple views per day for the same content, while podcast downloads can only be counted once per 24 hours, meaning view counts âmight exceed downloads for the same amount of consumptionââpotentially inflating YouTubeâs apparent reach relative to actual unique audience exposure.
The industryâs standard practice of treating RSS impressions and YouTube views as fungible in media planning and MMM modeling means advertisers spending $1M on YouTube podcast impressions âmay be losing up to $250K in conversion valueâ without realizing it, because theyâre pricing both formats identically despite the 25% effectiveness difference.
Why It Matters
This research represents the first industry attempt to measure relative performance between audio-only and YouTube simulcast podcast advertising using actual conversion data rather than engagement proxies. The 18-25% gap isnât a minor optimization opportunityâit fundamentally challenges the economic case for the video podcast boom thatâs reshaping production economics across the industry. When major advertisers like BetterHelp (Novemberâs top spender at $5.9M) announce theyâre âdoubling down on visual opportunitiesâ in 2026, theyâre making strategic bets that contradict the largest cross-platform effectiveness study available.
The timing couldnât be worse. Podcast producers face brutal economics: video production costs 2-3x more than audio while Oxford Roadâs data suggests it delivers 25% worse advertiser outcomes. Thatâs not a sustainable business modelâthatâs subsidizing platform growth metrics with creator budgets. Fair play to platforms pushing video engagement numbers, but engagement and advertising effectiveness arenât the same thing, and this research exposes the gap.
The Big Picture
Hereâs the uncomfortable part: the entire industry committed to video before understanding whether it actually works for the people funding the ecosystem. Spotify partnering with Netflix. Global launching video-first Global Studios. Acast enabling premium YouTube ads. Every major player sprinted toward video based on consumption metricsâ54% YoY growth, viewers consuming 1.5x more contentâwithout asking whether those viewers convert better or worse than audio listeners. Let that sink in.
The Oxford Road/Podscribe research explains why the gap exists, and none of the reasons are fixable with better creative:
Podcast listening is intentional. Audio-only listeners deliberately select shows and consume them during high-engagement activities. YouTube viewers often arrive via algorithmic discovery, creating âmore rapid viewer lossâ as the algorithm serves competing options designed to pull attention away.
Audio listeners are conditioned to use promo codes. Long-term podcast listeners have spent years supporting shows through code redemptions. âThis expectation doesnât exist in the same way in the YT environment,â the research notes. You canât fix audience behavior differences with production quality.
YouTube audiences skew international. International listeners see ads for products unavailable in their markets, âdiminishing response.â Audio podcast audiences are more geographically targeted because distribution is controlled by the creator, not YouTubeâs algorithm.
View inflation versus download accuracy. YouTubeâs multiple-views-per-day counting inflates impression numbers compared to podcast downloadsâ once-per-24-hours methodology, meaning advertisers are buying less unique reach than they think.
The Magellan AI November spending data reveals the stakes. BetterHelp spent $5.9M, Washable Sofas $5.8M, T-Mobile $5.4M. As these advertisers shift budgets toward video platforms without understanding the 25% effectiveness penalty, theyâre accepting worse performance while podcast producers bear triple the production costs. When someone eventually runs the numbersâand Oxford Road just didâthe entire video podcast advertising market faces a reckoning.
1Passwordâs CMO Melton Littlepage offers the counterargument: âThe visual storytelling makes all of the difference for us, because it allows consumers to quickly see how the product works.â The company reports better results from video podcasts. But 1Password sells software with UI/UX that benefits from visual demonstration. For the 78% of Oxford Road clients whose performance declined with increased YouTube share, visual storytelling apparently didnât overcome the fundamental engagement and audience behavior gaps.
Oxford Roadâs 10-step action plan reveals how deep this problem runs:
âDo not treat RSS downloads and YouTube views as fungible.â This is currently standard industry practice. Media planners routinely combine audio and video impressions into total podcast reach numbers, pricing them identically.
âPrice simulcast deliberately. Calibrate YouTube CPMs to reflect the per-impression gap youâre likely to see in performance.â Translation: YouTube podcast ads should cost 18-25% less than audio podcast ads. Currently they donât, meaning advertisers are overpaying.
âConsider reducing pixel weights for video if youâre assuming 1:1 performance.â Many advertisers using pixel-based attribution treat video and audio podcast impressions identically in their MMM models, systematically overestimating YouTubeâs contribution.
The research acknowledges limitations worth noting. It doesnât distinguish between true video ads (with product visuals and demonstrations) versus audio read over static images. It doesnât control for international impression percentages. The datasets rely on promo codes and surveys, not pixel-based attribution. Further research should segment these variables.
But two independent methodologies converging on an 18-25% gap across 100+ brands isnât noise. Thatâs signal.
For podcast advertisers: Demand separate reporting and pricing for video versus audio-only placements. If your agency treats YouTube views and RSS downloads as fungible impressions, youâre overpaying for video by roughly 20%. Either negotiate lower YouTube CPMs or require proof that specific shows donât exhibit the effectiveness gap. BetterHelp, Quince, and other top spenders: your video podcast bets better outperform this industry average, or youâre burning seven figures annually.
For podcast producers: Before investing in video production capabilities, calculate actual ROI. If video costs 3x more to produce and converts 25% worse for advertisers, you need video to deliver 4x the CPMs just to break even. Thatâs not happening. The Oxford Road data suggests you should be charging less for video inventory, not more. Ask existing sponsors for cross-platform performance data before doubling video production budgets. If they canât provide it, youâre making production decisions based on platform marketing rather than advertiser outcomes.
For the industry: The video podcast boom created a measurement crisis that threatens long-term advertiser confidence. When your top spenders benchmark video versus audio performance and discover the 25% gap, they wonât blame themselvesâtheyâll question podcastingâs effectiveness claims. The medium built its reputation on superior engagement and conversion rates. Systematically destroying that advantage by chasing video metrics that donât correlate with business outcomes is how you lose advertiser trust.
Googleâs response to WSJ is telling: âAdvertisers on YouTube already recognize the differences between audio-only services and its video ad offerings.â Thatâs corporate-speak for âwe price them differently because we know they perform differently.â Except podcast publishers donât price them differently, because most donât have the cross-platform data Oxford Road and Podscribe just revealed.
The 71% of U.S. creators now producing video versions of their shows are responding rationally to audience migration. YouTube surpassed Spotify to become the most popular podcast platform. But audience size and advertising effectiveness arenât the same thing, and this research proves it. The industry learned this lesson with display advertisingâmassive reach, terrible conversion rates. Weâre about to learn it again with video podcasts, except this time creators are paying triple the production costs for the privilege of delivering worse advertiser results.
The platforms wonât fix this. YouTube benefits from creators producing expensive video content that feeds its algorithm. Spotify wants to compete for video attention share. The people who suffer are independent creators caught between expensive video production mandates and advertiser ROI that doesnât justify the costs. REALLY? Yes. Really.
SIGNAL HILL INSIGHTS
Video Podcast Boom Collides with 25% Conversion Gap as Industry Doubles Down on Unproven Format
Podwires Rundown: Remember when YouTube as a podcast platform was âcontroversialâ? When industry veterans insisted listeners didnât understand the difference between podcasts and YouTubers like Mr. Beast? Signal Hill Insights does. Back in April 2022, they caught heat for reporting YouTube had become the most-used podcast platform in the US.
The skeptics said audiences were confused. The data said otherwise. Now, three years later, YouTube is the primary platform for 42% of weekly podcast consumersânearly three times Spotifyâs share. And hereâs the kicker: in 2023, exactly zero percent of Signal Hillâs brand lift studies included video podcasts. In 2025? 61% included video. Let that sink in.
This comes from Signal Hill Insightsâ analysis of 66,000 monthly podcast consumers surveyed in 2025âa 45% increase over their 2024 research. President Paul Riismandel and his team didnât just track platform preferences; they measured what brands actually buy, revealing a âradical shift in brand prioritiesâ around video podcast advertising effectiveness.
The Key Points:
YouTube dominates podcast consumption: 42% of weekly podcast consumers use YouTube as their primary platform, nearly 3x Spotifyâs share, confirming a trend Signal Hill first reported in 2022 despite industry skepticism
Brands have shifted dramatically to video: 61% of Signal Hillâs 2025 brand lift studies included video podcasts, up from 0% in 2023, demonstrating that advertisers take video podcasts seriously and want measurable ROI
Narrative podcasts remain strong despite rumors: Weekly podcast consumers spend 54% of their time with narrative podcasts, contradicting reports of their âdemiseââeven among audiences who prefer actively watching video
Smart TVs became the second most-used podcast device: The combination of video growth and TV ubiquity created an overlooked consumption pattern that challenges assumptions about how audiences engage with podcasts
Political composition of news podcast audiences completely flipped: In Q2 2024, 41% of monthly news podcast consumers were Democrats vs 28% Republicans; by late 2025, it reversed to 39% Republican and 32% Democrat
Why It Matters:
The video podcast debate is overâthe audience already voted with their viewing habits, and brands followed with their budgets. Understanding this isnât about choosing sides in format wars; itâs about recognizing that executive decisions about production, distribution, and advertising must account for platform realities, not industry nostalgia. When brand lift studies shift from 0% to 61% video in two years, thatâs not a trendâthatâs a market transformation that affects every production budget, advertising proposal, and audience growth strategy.
The Big Picture
Hereâs the uncomfortable part: if youâre still debating whether video podcasts are âreal podcasts,â youâre having the wrong conversation while your competitors capture younger audiences and video-focused ad dollars. The actionable insight isnât âadd camerasââitâs understanding that successful podcast strategies now require multi-format thinking from day one.
For podcast producers, this means building workflows that efficiently create compelling content for both audio and visual consumption without doubling production costs. The narrative podcast data offers relief: storytelling still works, but you need to reconsider what qualifies as ânarrative.â Crime Junkieâs conversational approach reaches the second-largest audience despite purists dismissing it as less documentary than Serial. The lesson? Format orthodoxy is expensiveâaudiences consume true crime, history, and storytelling across formats, and rigid definitions only limit your reach.
The smart TV revelation exposes another strategic gap: most podcasters optimize for mobile and ignore the second most-used device category. Fair play if you donât watch podcasts on TV, but consumers vote with behavior, not your preferences. And that political flip in news podcast audiences? New listeners arrive daily with different profiles than existing fansâdonât build audience strategies assuming tomorrowâs listeners mirror yesterdayâs.
For the industry overall, these surprises underscore why research matters more than assumptions. Signal Hill surveyed nine times more video podcast consumers in 2025 than 2024 because thatâs where the audience went. The companies that recognized this shift earlyâand measured its impactâare now positioned to capture both audience growth and advertiser demand. The ones still arguing about definitions are getting lapped by closed platforms that solved format flexibility years ago.
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